The Pioneer Woman Models Come Home
The Pioneer Woman Models Come Home
by Hugh Pickens
Commissioned by oilman E. W. Marland and erected in 1930, the Pioneer Woman statue stands at the center of Ponca City’s civic life. The result of a sculptural competition, twelve of the world’s leading artists each produced a three foot bronze of their conception of the Pioneer Woman. The bronzes toured the United States and were a sensation in New York City where they were viewed by hundreds of thousands of people at the Reinhardt Galleries and written up in Time Magazine and by the New York Times. Over 750,000 cast votes for their favorite and Bryant Baker’s “Confident” was the selection of the people. The twelve original bronzes from the competition are still in existence and since 1940 have been at Woolaroc Museum located near Bartlesville, 75 miles from Ponca City. This is the story of the Pioneer Woman Models.
Carl Renfro and his wife Carolyn have been involved with the community of Ponca City ever since they came to Ponca in 1968. Carolyn was on the first Marland Estate Commission after the city purchased the mansion in 1976 and served two terms on the initial commission. In 1994 and 1995 Carl was Chairman of the Marland Estate Commission and under his tenure he started the Marland Estate Foundation which is the organization that raises money to restore and to help furnish the mansion to its original condition. “Over the years we have had a great love for the mansion and we endowed the mansion with a grant to help with restoration of the mansion,” says Renfro adding that his wife Carolyn still serves on the Marland Estate Foundation.
“I have been very interested in how we could get the original Pioneer Woman Models back to Ponca City,” says Renfro, “but I found that that was not going to be possible so in 2009 I decided to make a run at getting reproductions of the models. Over the years I have been involved with the Standing Bear Foundation and in the erection of the Standing Bear Statue in Ponca City so I had learned a lot about sculpture and I knew that it was possible to do a really good reproduction of an original bronze sculpture.”
“This whole thing was a bit serendipitous,” says Bob Fraser, the Executive Director of the Frank Phillips Foundation and Woolaroc Museum. “Over the last twenty, thirty, forty years, it almost seems like there has been a smoldering animosity between Ponca City and Bartlesville. It certainly was that way between Woolaroc and the Marland Mansion for many years so when I came to Woolaroc as Executive Director about four years ago I just thought it was unnecessary and that both communities ought to be working together as much as they possibly could to strengthen each other during tough times. So last year Carl gave me a phone call and said that he was interested in being able to make reproductions of the models of the Pioneer Woman and put them in the Marland Mansion. His hope was that we would agree to it.”
“I approached Bob Fraser at Woolaroc Museum,” say Renfro. “I had never met Bob before but his son actually works here in Ponca City for RCB Bank where I have been affiliated for forty years now. I approached Bob with what I had in mind to find out if it was possible to be able to make reproductions of the originals. Bob took it to the board of directors of the Frank Phillips Foundation and I had a chance to talk to the board before they made their decision.”
The History of the Pioneer Woman Models
To understand the story of the Pioneer Woman Models you have to go back over a 100 years. In 1908 E. W. Marland came to Oklahoma after losing his fortune in the Pennsylvania oil fields in the panic of 1907 and by 1920 had reestablished himself and started the Marland Oil Company in Ponca City with a fortune estimated at $85 million (roughly $910 million in modern dollars). Marland was a visionary and not only pioneered the use of geophysical techniques in the oil industry but was years ahead of his time as an employer providing housing, loans, medical care, and other benefits for the thousands of employees who worked at his refineries and on his pipelines.
But misfortune would strike Marland and in 1928 his oil empire was destroyed by J.P. Morgan's banking interests. Marland was forced out of the oil company he had founded when bankers merged it with Continental Oil Company and renamed the company Conoco. Marland was given the opportunity to remain on in an honorary position as Chairman of the new company as long as he would agree to leave Ponca City. Morgan Bank didn’t want Marland in town undermining the authority of the new General Manager brought in to run Marland’s old company. Marland chose to forgo the position so he could remain in the city that he had made his home.
The Competition between Twelve Sculptors
Two years earlier, before losing his fortune, Marland had decided to build a monument to the disappearing West and began a project to build a statue of the "Pioneer Women" in Ponca City, the city where Marland had made his fortune and lived for almost twenty years. In 1926 Marland commissioned twelve 3-foot sculptures that were submitted by US and international sculptors as models for the Pioneer Woman statue. Marland paid each sculptor $10,000 for his submission, equivalent to about $100,000 for each model in US dollars today.
Marland told the sculptors to pay tribute to “the pilgrim mothers, the Puritan women, the mothers of the south, the sturdy broods." "All races, all creeds, all nationalities gave their best and bravest women," added Marland. Marland's first idea was to have the figure of a woman accompanied by a child and dressed in pioneer dress characterized by a sunbonnet. For this purpose a sunbonnet was sent to each sculptor. Later the artists were given a free hand, but nevertheless in the final submissions each figure had a sunbonnet, and with the exception of Jo Davidson's model each woman is pictured with a child.
The twelve submissions included "Protective" by John Gregory; "Determined" by Maurice Sterne; "Challenging" by H.A. MacNeil; "Affectionate" by James E. Fraser; "Self-Reliant" by A. Stirling Calder; "Fearless" by Wheeler Williams; "Heroic" by Mario Korbel; "Adventurous" by F. Lynn Jenkins; "Sturdy" by Mahonri Young; "Faithful" by Arthur Lee; "Trusting" by Jo Davidson; and "Confident" by Bryant Baker. The models were taken on a tour of the country in a special railroad car and shown in Ponca City, New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Dallas, Fort Worth and Oklahoma City where they were viewed by 750,000 people who cast votes for their favorite.
The New York Times reported that on February 26, 1927 Marland hosted a dinner at the Hotel Plaza in New York City for the twelve sculptors who had submitted models. Marland paid tribute to the wives of the pioneers who, he said, had never been sufficiently appreciated. "Pictures have we in plenty of the stern Pilgrim Fathers and the gallant gentlemen of the friendlier Virginia soil," said Marland, "but we are forced to draw on our imagination somewhat for pictures of the mothers. The toll of life resulting from their hardships left millions of unmarked graves across this continent, graves of women who died that we might live and love this homeland."
The Exhibition Arrives in New York City
The New York Times reported on March 27, 1927 that the exhibition had arrived in New York City and that it had attracted "more interest than any exhibition of sculpture New York has known in a long while." The twelve models were exhibited from February 26 to March 19 in the Reinhardt Galleries at 730 Fifth Avenue in an exhibition called "Pioneer Woman in America." Bryant Baker's model was the winner of the first place in the New York balloting. The Times reported that "Baker not only won first honors, but was the last man to enter the contest having no more than a month to prepare his model and obtain a casting."
Marland pronounced himself pleased with the models. "I believe all of the sculptors have done well," said Marland. "We could select any one of the twelve figures and get an excellent interpretation of the frontier woman. The decision will be a hard one to make. I expect to be guided largely by public taste, but the final decision will be my own. This national vote is going to show exactly what the American people think about one of the greatest of their women," Marland added.
The exhibition touched a popular chord in American culture of the time. The New York Times reported on March 27, 1927 that among those who visited the exhibition at the Reinhardt Galleries was 91 year old Betty Wollman who as a young bride had journeyed from St. Louis to Leavenworth Kansas in 1855 and had once entertained Abraham Lincoln as a dinner guest in the Wollman household in Leavenworth long before Lincoln was a candidate for President.
Wollman spoke about women's role during pioneer days in the old west and congratulated Marland for his proposal to erect a statue to the Pioneer Woman. "Mr. Marland is to be congratulated for doing this in commemoration of these early women of the West," said Wollman. "The hardships were many, and the courage and self-denial of the women who worked side by side with their husbands and sons and brothers in those primitive days are largely responsible for the development of the Middle Western States, now so rich in everything that goes to make life worth living."
Time Magazine, then in only its third year of publication, reported on the exhibition praising “Bryant Baker's striding figure of a woman whose skirts are blown backward in a prairie breeze, who carries a Bible in one hand, leads her scampish belligerent little boy with the other." Time reported that Baker had used a Manhattan actress as the model for his sculpture and added that “His depiction shows a beautiful and shapely young woman striding into the American dawn, a Bible in hand, a wideawake boy trotting at her side, who appears mightily absorbed by the new life unfolding about him.”
Bryant Baker is Selected
On December 21, 1927 Marland's adoptive son, George Marland, announced at Bernhardt Gallerie in New York City that Bryant Baker's model “Confident” had been picked, winning the commission and the $100,000 prize. The popular vote showed Bryant Baker's model had been the favorite in eleven cities, while the model submitted by John Gregory received highest vote in three cities. It is believed that Marland's personal favorite was "Trusting" by Jo Davidson who had also sculpted the statue of Marland on the town plaza of Ponca City. Baker's model shows a young woman leading her small son by the hand. "On her right arm the woman carries a bundle, representing the burden of life and all her worldly goods," reported the New York Times. "Under her right arm she holds a Bible, which Mr. Baker said ‘was a vital factor in building up this country.’"
“The woman is not yet seared and broken by heartbreaking toil," said Baker. "Although there were many failures who became emaciated with their hardships and strifes, there were more successes, or the Western country could not be what it is today. We should admire and immortalize the fine types, singing only the song of victory to the future generations rather than bemoan the few who were lost.”
In conceiving the Pioneer Woman Statue, it is reported that Baker had received inspiration from the frontier story of Mary Kelly Hurley and her young son Patrick Jay Hurley who would later serve in Herbert Hoover's administration as Secretary of War. Hurley, the first Oklahoman to serve in a Presidential cabinet, was born in poverty in the Choctaw Nation in Indian Territory in 1883, and would later speak at the unveiling of the Pioneer Woman statue.
The Unveiling in Ponca City
Baker and his assistant Donald De Lue completed the 17-foot bronze of the Pioneer Woman in less than sixteen months and shipped the 6 ton statue by train from New York City to Oklahoma. Baker's sculpture was unveiled in Ponca City in a public ceremony on April 22, 1930 on the anniversary of the 1893 opening of the Cherokee Outlet. Forty thousand guests including Marland’s old friend Frank Phillips came to hear Will Rogers pay tribute to Oklahoma's pioneers.
President Hoover addressed the nation over a nation-wide radio network for the commemoration of the statue. "It was those women who carried the refinement, the moral character and spiritual force into the West," said Hoover. "Not only they bore great burdens of daily toil and the rearing of families, but they were intent that their children should have a chance.”
"The Pioneer Woman's composite character is the character of our nation," added Secretary of War Patrick Hurley, a native Oklahoman, speaking to the crowd by radio from his home in Washington, DC. "These women who came here at the opening of this country were the bulwark standing between civilization and barbarism."
The finished statue of the Pioneer Woman Statue weighed 12,000 pounds and was thirty feet high from the bottom of her pyramid limestone base to the top of her sunbonnet. Marland deeded the statue and the 5-1/2 acre park it was located on to Governor Holloway as a gift to the state of Oklahoma.
The dedication ceremony for Marland may have been bittersweet. Marland was broke and no longer had the money to complete the project writes Michael Wallace in his biography of Frank Phillips. "Completion of the project was secretly paid off by Lew Wentz, another Ponca City oil tycoon, and, ironically, a bitter Marland rival," says Wallace. But Marland was in good spirits as he greeted his old friend Frank Phillips who had flown over from Bartlesville to attend Marland’s dedication ceremony. "Wearing a top hat and cutaway, Marland was smiling and seemed pleased by a large turnout for the dedication ceremony. Frank squeezed Marland's hand and wished him well."
Marland's Public Service as Governor
After Marland lost Marland Oil Company, he decided to dedicate his life to public service. In 1932 Marland was elected to the United States House of Representatives to represent Oklahoma’s 8th Congressional District, the first Democrat to hold that seat in 15 years. On January 15, 1935, Marland was inaugurated as Governor of Oklahoma. Immediately, Marland instituted a policy that would become known as the "Little New Deal." Despite Governor Marland’s efforts, most politicians in Oklahoma never fully embraced the New Deal but by the end of Marland's term as Governor, WPA projects had created jobs for over 90,000 Oklahomans on over 1,300 projects and the Legislature had accepted Marland's proposal for a homestead exemption provision to the state’s ad valorem taxes, increased school funds, and raising the state sales tax to two percent with funds raised by the sales tax to go towards the handicapped, the elderly, and dependent children.
Marland's Final Days
Marland’s term as Governor ended in 1939 and under Oklahoma law he could not succeed himself so he returned to Ponca City to live out his final days. Already ill, on March 11, 1940 Marland wrote a letter to his old friend Frank Phillips. "My financial condition compels me to sell objects of art, tapestries, bronzes, rugs, and paintings acquired by me in more prosperous years," wrote Marland. "I will sell at a price approximately 25 per cent of their cost to me... And will consider it a kindness if you will come yourself or send someone to look them over with the object of buying anything you fancy."
Phillips sent art expert Gordon Matzene to inspect the bronzes and Pat Patterson, first director of Woolaroc Museum, to negotiate for their purchase. The models were sold to Phillips and removed from Ponca City along with “Pioneer Man” by Bryant Baker and “The Indian.” “The Squaw,” “The Cowboy,” and “Belle Starr” by Jo Mora to became part of Phillips' collection at Woolaroc.
In May, 1941 Marland sold his mansion to the Discalced Carmelite Fathers of Oklahoma while retaining ownership of about three acres and a few buildings where he would live until his death less than six months later. Marland died of a heart condition in October, 1941, just a few weeks before America’s entry into World War II. His old friend Frank Phillips traveled to Marland’s funeral. “Frank Phillips was there. Rest assured of that,” said Pat Patterson. “Frank Phillips stuck with him to the end.”
The Models Return to Ponca City
Agreement with Woolaroc
“The Pioneer Woman Models originated in Ponca City,” says Woolaroc Executive Director Bob Fraser. “They were Mr. Marland’s. He sold them to Frank Phillips during difficult financial times. So to me it was a perfect time. I told Carl Renfro I thought his idea of making reproductions of the Pioneer Woman Models was a great idea.”
“I thought that Woolaroc and the Frank Phillips Foundation would be able to work together with Carl and Carolyn Renfro,” adds Fraser, “but I needed to make sure that I had approval from my foundation board. I went to Bob Kane who is our Chairman, talked to him, explained the whole thing and he endorsed it. I told him I thought it would be something that the people of Ponca City would appreciate. I told him it would be a nice gesture on our part and that I saw no downside to it. Mr. Kane embraced the idea as much as I did and very quickly brought it to the rest of the board who voted to approve it.”
“We executed an agreement with the Frank Phillips Foundation in September 2009,” says Renfro. The agreement states that all costs for having the reproductions made would be born by Carl and Carolyn Renfro and that the statues would be donated by them to the Marland Mansion Foundation. The agreement added that it was the intent of the Renfros to make the reproductions available to be seen by the public at the Marland Mansion, that under no circumstances would additional reproductions be made of the statues, and that the role of the Frank Philips Foundation for making this gift possible would be acknowledged in the display of the reproductions.
Making the Reproductions
“Then I got together with John Free who owns the Bronze Horse Foundry in Pawhuska and told him exactly what we had in mind,” says Renfro. “I had him go down to Woolaroc because he had done work for Woolaroc on other occasions and so they were familiar with the quality of work that he did. Mr. Free took measurements of all the statues and then got back with me and gave me a price to make the reproductions. The agreement that we struck with Woolaroc Museum was that we would take two statues at a time and then once the first two were completed, we would take them back to Woolaroc and pick up two more sculptures so there was never more than two gone at one time. The foundry started in September 2009 and they told us they would be completed no later than April, 2010.”
"It has been very nice to get involved in this project," says John Free, owner of the Bronze Horse Foundry in Pawhuska where the reproductions are being made. "We have done a lot of work for Woolaroc in the past and this is a historic project. We are just glad that we were able to get involved in getting the Pioneer Women back over to Ponca City."
Making a copy of each statue is a multi-step process that takes several months from start to finish. "First we make a rubber mold of each statue," says Free. "Then we use that rubber mold to make a wax copy of the original statue. We take the wax copy and build a ceramic mold around the wax. Then we will put the ceramic mold in a furnace and burn out all the wax. At that point we will fill the cavity in the ceramic mold back up with hot bronze, let it set, then break the ceramic mold off the bronze piece and clean it. For a reproduction of this size we will usually have to make each reproduction in two or three different sections so we fit the sections back together, weld them, grind them, finish them, and deliver the finished reproduction to the Marland Mansion. It takes us about ten days to make the mold depending on how complicated the piece is. Then it takes us about two months after that to pour the wax pattern, make the ceramic mold and finish it out. There is probably sixty to eighty hours of skilled labor that go into each reproduction."
"The finished reproduction and the original statue are almost identical," adds Free. "You would have to put the original side by side with the reproduction to see any difference. The only thing that actually changes between the original and the reproduction is because you are making a rubber mold, the reproductions are slightly smaller than the originals. Every time you pour hot bronze into a mold, the bronze shrinks just a little bit as it cools so while the original models are three feet tall, the reproductions we are making might be three-eighths of an inch shorter. The other difference is that the originals are over eighty years old so with the passage of the years they have taken on a slightly verde patina. The reproductions will start out in Ponca City with a darker brown than the originals but as they are exposed to the environment, they will take on a slightly different color too."
“We have been transitioning the statues over to the foundry for the last four or five months,” says Fraser, “and we still have two left and then Carl will have reproductions of all of the Pioneer Woman Models at that point.”
Open House for the General Public
“We hope that by April all the reproductions will all be completed,” says Renfro, “and by that time we will have a big open house for the general public. We are also having specially designed pedestals for the models. We have had one of them made to our liking and we all agree that it is really good. We would like to display the models upstairs in the main area but there just is not room to properly display them so we are going to display them downstairs, possibly in the hallway at the bottom of the stairs.” upda
“To me it was an easy answer” says Fraser. “It was like ‘these statues used to belong to Ponca City’ now they belong to Woolaroc. Why don’t we have reproductions made of these statues and get them over to Ponca City. If people look at these statues and say ‘this is a nice gesture by Woolaroc or by Bartlesville’ that would be even better. The statues belong in Ponca City and I’m just glad that we were fortunate that a man like Carl Renfro stepped up and made it happen.”
“My wife Carolyn and I got involved with bringing the Pioneer Woman models back to Ponca City because we love the mansion and we love the history of the Marland era and we wanted to bring it back as much as we could,” says Renfro. "Like anybody else you don’t do it for the recognition but I think people in the business community are aware of the fact that my wife and I deeply love this community and we are trying to give back. The years that I spent and made a decent living and was able to accumulate assets, I realize that the only reason that I have those assets now is because of the people of Ponca City. So being able to give back in some small way is something that we really wanted to do while we are still alive."
Carl and Carolyn Renfro, Bob Fraser, and many others have been modern day caretakers of the dreams of E. W. Marland and Frank Phillips that their cities work together. We have them to thank for what has been accomplished and for helping us recognize what still remains to be done.
Books and Papers
1. "Pioneer Woman Models" by Hugh Pickens on the world wide web at www.PioneerWomanModels.com July 13, 2007
2. The Papers of Will Rogers: The Final Years, August 1928 - August 1935 by Will Rogers, Steven K. Gragert, M. Jane Johansson. University of Oklahoma Press. 2006.
3. “Ponca City and Kay County Boom Towns” by Clyda Franks. Arcadia Publishing. 2002.
4. “Frank's Fancy: Frank Phillips' Woolaroc” by Gale Morgan Kane, published 2001 by Oklahoma Heritage Association.
5. “Mahonri Young: His Life and Art, Signature Books” by Thomas E. Toone, Salt Lake City, 1997.
6. “Oil Man: the Story of Frank Phillips and the Birth of Phillips Petroleum” by Michael Wallis. St. Martin's Press. 1995.
7. "The Sculpture of Donald De Lue: Gods, Prophets, and Heroes" by D. Roger Howlett. 1990.
8. "Between Sittings" by Jo Davidson. 1951.
9. "Life and Death of an Oilman: The Career of E.W. Marland" by John Joseph Mathews. University of Oklahoma Press. 1951.
1. Interview with Carl Renfro by Hugh Pickens on February 15, 2010.
2. Interview with Bob Fraser by Hugh Pickens on February 19, 2010.
3. Interview with John Free by Hugh Pickens on March 2, 2010.
1. New York Times. "Pioneer Woman in Bronze" February 22, 1927.
2. New York Times. "Marland Praises Women Pioneers; Describes Hardship at Dinner for 12 Sculptors Competing for Huge Memorial." February 26, 1927.
3. New York Times. "Public to Decide on Art" February 27, 1927.
4. New York Times. "Pioneer Woman Seen in Bronze." March 20, 1927.
5. New York Times. "Vote on Pioneer Woman" March 20, 1927.
6. New York Times. "Statue of the Pioneer Woman Stirs Memories of Long Ago." March 27, 1927.
7. Time Magazine. "Art: Pioneer" March 28, 1927.
8. New York Times. "Pupils Analyze Pioneer Women" April 3, 1927.
9. "The Pioneer Woman" by Henry McBride. The Dial Magazine. May, 1927
10. New York Times. "Marland Names Winner Among 12 Sculptors for Monument in Oklahoma." December 21, 1927.
11. Time Magazine. "Pioneers" January 2, 1928.
12. New York Times. "The Pioneer Woman Praised by Hoover." April 23, 1930.
13. "Two Oklahomans Honored" by Charles Evans. Chronicles of Oklahoma. January 25, 1951.
14. "Monument Road Once Lined With Prominent Statues" by Louise Abercrombie. The Ponca City News. October 21, 1996.
15. "Pioneer Woman Models to Visit Ponca City" by Louise Abercrombie. The Ponca City News. May 22, 2000
16. "Only in Oklahoma: Pioneer Woman's Spirit Preserved in Bronze" by Gene Curtis. Tulsa World. April 27, 2009.
- ↑ "Pioneer Woman Models" by Hugh Pickens on the world wide web at www.PioneerWomanModels.com July 13, 2007
- ↑ Interview with Carl Renfro by Hugh Pickens on February 15, 2010.
- ↑ Interview with Bob Fraser by Hugh Pickens on February 19, 2010.
- ↑ "Life and Death of an Oilman: The Career of E.W. Marland" by John Joseph Mathews. University of Oklahoma Press. 1951.
- ↑ “Mahonri Young: His Life and Art, Signature Books” by Thomas E. Toone, Salt Lake City, 1997.
- ↑ New York Times. "Vote on Pioneer Woman" March 20, 1927.
- ↑ New York Times. "Public to Decide on Art" February 27, 1927.
- ↑ New York Times. "Marland Praises Women Pioneers; Describes Hardship at Dinner for 12 Sculptors Competing for Huge Memorial." February 26, 1927.
- ↑ "The Pioneer Woman" by Henry McBride. The Dial Magazine. May, 1927
- ↑ New York Times. "Pioneer Woman Seen in Bronze." March 20, 1927.
- ↑ New York Times. "Pioneer Woman in Bronze" February 22, 1927.
- ↑ New York Times. "Statue of the Pioneer Woman Stirs Memories of Long Ago." March 27, 1927.
- ↑ New York Times. "Pupils Analyze Pioneer Women" April 3, 1927.
- ↑ Time Magazine. "Art: Pioneer" March 28, 1927.
- ↑ New York Times. "Marland Names Winner Among 12 Sculptors for Monument in Oklahoma." December 21, 1927.
- ↑ "Between Sittings" by Jo Davidson. 1951.
- ↑ Time Magazine. "Pioneers" January 2, 1928.
- ↑ The Papers of Will Rogers: The Final Years, August 1928 - August 1935 by Will Rogers, Steven K. Gragert, M. Jane Johansson. University of Oklahoma Press. 2006.
- ↑ "Two Oklahomans Honored" by Charles Evans. Chronicles of Oklahoma. January 25, 1951.
- ↑ "The Sculpture of Donald De Lue: Gods, Prophets, and Heroes" by D. Roger Howlett. 1990.
- ↑ New York Times. "The Pioneer Woman Praised by Hoover." April 23, 1930.
- ↑ "Only in Oklahoma: Pioneer Woman's Spirit Preserved in Bronze" by Gene Curtis. Tulsa World. April 27, 2009.
- ↑ "Pioneer Woman Models to Visit Ponca City" by Louise Abercrombie. The Ponca City News. May 22, 2000
- ↑ “Frank's Fancy: Frank Phillips' Woolaroc” by Gale Morgan Kane, published 2001 by Oklahoma Heritage Association.
- ↑ "Monument Road Once Lined With Prominent Statues" by Louise Abercrombie. The Ponca City News. October 21, 1996.
- ↑ “Ponca City and Kay County Boom Towns” by Clyda Franks. Arcadia Publishing. 2002.
- ↑ “Oil Man: the Story of Frank Phillips and the Birth of Phillips Petroleum” by Michael Wallis. St. Martin's Press. 1995.
- ↑ Interview with John Free by Hugh Pickens on March 2, 2010.